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Social Issues I shouldn't have to so I'm not going to

ToyBoxOrphan

Administrator
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
257
#1
What is with this general attitude in the last decade or so? For almost every important issue we're dealing with right now, if society agrees that somebody shouldn't have to do something, they totally back that person not doing it and if you do suggest that they to do it, it's always labeled as victim blaming.

I was thinking last night about the kids at Parkland and everyone losing their minds over shooting drills at school. Shooting drills are a good idea! I grew up with tornado drills, fire drills and bomb drills. None of this was traumatic for me and it didn't make me a fearful person. In fact, I'd say it made me more confident to know there is a plan and this is what you do. Does none of this happen in schools anymore? So, the discussion became about why this is offensive to people. Doc D and I figure it's because children "shouldn't have to" deal with this. Do we live in a fantasy? If so, it's the lamest fantasy of all time. What children "shouldn't have to" deal with is not the same thing as what they will deal with.

Now the big debate seems to be about clear backpacks. The Parkland kids just think they "shouldn't have to" use them. Well I did. Clear backpacks were implemented in my high school long before Columbine and they sucked because they were cheaply made, but never did I get some strange idea that my rights were being violated. What are you even bringing to school that you can't handle another person seeing through a shitty plastic bag?

This is used all the time. Women "shouldn't have to" learn self-defense. They "shouldn't have to" take precautions like letting people know where they're headed and when they expect to be home. They "shouldn't have to" think about the neighborhood they're walking through at 2am. Okay, yeah that sounds like an excellent world. I 100% agree that women and men shouldn't have to worry about any of that. It doesn't mean they won't end up in a situation where they wish they had. If you even so much as suggest that accounting for any of these possibilities would be a good idea though, you're victim blaming. Nope. I'm talking about victim prevention or victim empowerment because we don't live in an ideal world.

The only place where this doesn't seem to apply is minorities. Black people have figured out that even though they "shouldn't have to" worry about harassment and they "shouldn't have to" worry about getting shot by cops, they sure as hell worry about it anyway. They plan for it. So, I'm going to suggest something. The entire I "shouldn't have to" so I'm not going to is an extremely privileged attitude.
 

Doc D

Moderator
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Messages
38
#2
The world has become obsessed with the idea that at some point everything was hunky dory, or that we live in the worst and most violent era in human history. It’s like everyone thinks life was some suburban day dream at some point and now everything has gone to shit. The truth is the world has always been dangerous, there has always been rape, murder, robbery, and general evil. It’s as constant as disease, or an hurricane, or an earthquake.

The past decade has spread this idea that these things are bad, so they should not happen which is true but the fact is they do happen. No one, and no society can totally prevent violence or predadation. The only thing a society or a person can do is to take measures to prevent it. No one wants to have to fight for their own agency or safety or their own lives but that’s the world we have always lived in.

Laws exist to create an ordered and functioning society, which is great but a safe and functioning soceity requires something that no law can truly enforce....compliance. It requires that every human being governed under that law follows that law. A fact that is ludicrous from the outset.

If we continually deny these facts and sick our collective heads in the sand then the results will be more of same.

We all have the right and personal responsibility to defend ourselves, to take actions to mitigate risk to ourselves and others. To act like you shouldn’t have to engage in an activity for your own protection and not doing it is like standing on the beach with a protest sign complaining that the incoming hurricane doesn’t have the right to destroy your home. Futile and useless.
 

Frigg!

Administrator
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
358
#3
I was thinking last night about the kids at Parkland and everyone losing their minds over shooting drills at school. Shooting drills are a good idea! I grew up with tornado drills, fire drills and bomb drills. None of this was traumatic for me and it didn't make me a fearful person. In fact, I'd say it made me more confident to know there is a plan and this is what you do. Does none of this happen in schools anymore? So, the discussion became about why this is offensive to people. Doc D and I figure it's because children "shouldn't have to" deal with this. Do we live in a fantasy? If so, it's the lamest fantasy of all time. What children "shouldn't have to" deal with is not the same thing as what they will deal with.
I guess I have a different perception here, at least in part. I see "shouldn't have to" as more of an expression of the ideal. At least one on one when I speak to people who talk in such terms, they seem to acknowledge that realism also has it's place.

Now the big debate seems to be about clear backpacks. The Parkland kids just think they "shouldn't have to" use them. Well I did. Clear backpacks were implemented in my high school long before Columbine and they sucked because they were cheaply made, but never did I get some strange idea that my rights were being violated. What are you even bringing to school that you can't handle another person seeing through a shitty plastic bag?
OK, I'm just plain dubious about this claim that "the Parkland kids" thing they shouldn't have to use clear backpacks. What I got from today was more that they are demaning more than just clear backpacks, and clear backpacks are not a long lasting real solution.

Quite frankly, when I saw the memes going around about Parkland kids bitching about clear backpacks, I wondered who pushed it. The NRA? Russian trolls? We know shills exist.

Sure, probably a few kids did complain about clear backpacks. To interpret that as if they mostly feel that way is a hasty generalization. No one even mentioned clear backpacks today. In interviews leading up to today, none of these kids mentioned it either. So how real is this?

This is used all the time. Women "shouldn't have to" learn self-defense. They "shouldn't have to" take precautions like letting people know where they're headed and when they expect to be home. They "shouldn't have to" think about the neighborhood they're walking through at 2am. Okay, yeah that sounds like an excellent world. I 100% agree that women and men shouldn't have to worry about any of that. It doesn't mean they won't end up in a situation where they wish they had. If you even so much as suggest that accounting for any of these possibilities would be a good idea though, you're victim blaming. Nope. I'm talking about victim prevention or victim empowerment because we don't live in an ideal world.
Well, I'm all for walking the path of idealism with practical feet. I'm a woman and I figure if I don't do what I can to protect myself, it doesn't mean I "deserve" anything bad that happens to me through being unprepared, but I'd be an idiot to do less than I can. Believe in God, but tie up your camel, and all that.

Yes, society needs to heal a lot of ill we're dealing with that we should have to deal with far less often. But personal responsibility is still important. Playing ostrich seems foolish.

The only place where this doesn't seem to apply is minorities. Black people have figured out that even though they "shouldn't have to" worry about harassment and they "shouldn't have to" worry about getting shot by cops, they sure as hell worry about it anyway. They plan for it. So, I'm going to suggest something. The entire I "shouldn't have to" so I'm not going to is an extremely privileged attitude.
I agree it is a privileged attitude. I've heard it far too often when a societal ill finally came to the white middle class. It's the joke in the African-American community nothing is a real problem in America until the white middle class feels it, and I cannot say those folks are wrong. It's what I've seen all my life.
 

Frigg!

Administrator
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
358
#4
The world has become obsessed with the idea that at some point everything was hunky dory, or that we live in the worst and most violent era in human history. It’s like everyone thinks life was some suburban day dream at some point and now everything has gone to shit. The truth is the world has always been dangerous, there has always been rape, murder, robbery, and general evil. It’s as constant as disease, or an hurricane, or an earthquake.
I get this in my religious community sometimes. I'm sure you know we look forward to the dawning of a Golden Age, but being the annoying person I am, I am always ready to quote our writings on the subject of the need for a police force in that future. ;)

Actually I think we live in a amazing times. We aren't all dying of diseases and war and famine at anywhere near the rate we have throughout human history. And frankly, I thank whatever wizard invented the hot shower.

The past decade has spread this idea that these things are bad, so they should not happen which is true but the fact is they do happen. No one, and no society can totally prevent violence or predadation. The only thing a society or a person can do is to take measures to prevent it. No one wants to have to fight for their own agency or safety or their own lives but that’s the world we have always lived in.
Some eras in some civilizations are still more corrupt and lawless than others. Humanity is learning, slowly but surely, but our progress is not constant. It goes in fits and starts.

We all have the right and personal responsibility to defend ourselves, to take actions to mitigate risk to ourselves and others. To act like you shouldn’t have to engage in an activity for your own protection and not doing it is like standing on the beach with a protest sign complaining that the incoming hurricane doesn’t have the right to destroy your home. Futile and useless.
^^^ this
 

Doc D

Moderator
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Messages
38
#6
Frigg!
Humanity does move forward in fits and starts but it also regresses. It’s not just the I shouldn’t have to so I won’t additude, it’s also the mindset of the Goverment should change the way people behave to suit my world view agenda that has come flying out of hyper liberal academic corners for years now.

Call me an alarmist but this looks a lot like the precursors of violent political revolution and that isn’t good for anyone.
I think we need massive change to a lot of things in our goverment and our society, but if history has taught me anything the jacked up way things are progressing that change is going to come not from reform but from violence and persecution.

This generation’s most out spoken waka dos sound a lot like red bolshivicks or the Chinese red army during the precursor to the chinese revolution. These current ideas can’t even be challenged without being accused of victim blaming, or being a Nazi or some other insane epitaph. If the decenting opinion is being drowned out the loudest madness becomes the order of the day.

I think the biggest problem we have with this Idea of I shouldn’t have to so I won’t, is it first comes from a very sheltered mindset that assumes bad things shouldn’t happen and there for they don’t. Secondly it infantalizes those that prescribe to it. It seems to inhibit the development of any growth or coping skills. It leaves them in perpetual childhood. Children have always been easy to manipulate and lead.

So I guess the real question is who is leading our children in this country? Because it sure as hell isn’t there parents anymore.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Messages
171
#7
My two cents: the children are looking overseas at Europe, at Australia, Japan, and even developing countries, and they're seeing universal healthcare that works, gun control with less oppression than in the US, education that respects the students, functioning safety nets, they're seeing environmental protection that prevents the thousands(!) of "Flint, Michigans" in the US. None of these foreign systems are perfect, but politicians are claiming imperfections in these systems are reasons to reject them wholesale, when they're objectively better than the current US system. The children see through the lies. So they are revolting and saying "we deserve better than we're getting". And they're right.
 

Doc D

Moderator
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Messages
38
#8
I never said that we do everything right. some of the other developed countries have great programs, but those countries are not the US. I’m all for universal health care, and better environmental protection, but Sweden is not the template for solving problems in a country with 300 million people from ever culture and ethnic background know to man. These nations that you reference are not utopias these countries look great at a distance but have there own problems. We don’t get to see those problems partly because those nation’s media don’t broadcast them on a 24 hour news cycle. When you don’t talk about your problems everything looks great, just ask Instagram.

As far as Japan goes these kids would hate living there. School 6 days a week cramp school on Sunday, ever aspect of your life is dictated by societal constraints. Japan is an economic super power but Art house utopia it is not.

Asking that someone else to fix all your problems is how we got here in the first place.
At some point you have to take care of yourself if your ever going to make the kinds of changes you want to see. Asking someone to not punch you in the face does not magically stop their fist. Sometimes you just have to throw down.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Messages
171
#9
I never said that we do everything right. some of the other developed countries have great programs, but those countries are not the US. I’m all for universal health care, and better environmental protection, but Sweden is not the template for solving problems in a country with 300 million people from ever culture and ethnic background know to man. These nations that you reference are not utopias these countries look great at a distance but have there own problems. We don’t get to see those problems partly because those nation’s media don’t broadcast them on a 24 hour news cycle. When you don’t talk about your problems everything looks great, just ask Instagram.
This could be taken straight from Republican / FoxNews talking points non-answer. I don't see how ethnic diversity prevents universal healthcare. Excepting in as much as some people don't want blacks to get free health care.
As far as Japan goes these kids would hate living there. School 6 days a week cramp school on Sunday, ever aspect of your life is dictated by societal constraints. Japan is an economic super power but Art house utopia it is not.
Very true. I'd rather be a kid in the US than Japan, the converse as an adult.
Asking that someone else to fix all your problems is how we got here in the first place.
Not asking someone else to fix all the problems, just asking the government to fix some of the problems. Otherwise what is a government for? In particular, copy those aspects of other governments that are successful and not those that aren't. You know, learn from other people's experience. Or even just from our own history would sometimes be nice - the EPA was created for a reason and it was successful. And now we've regressed to the point that there's poisoned water all across America.
At some point you have to take care of yourself if your ever going to make the kinds of changes you want to see. Asking someone to not punch you in the face does not magically stop their fist. Sometimes you just have to throw down.
Sometimes. Sometimes governments function and sometimes not. In the US, a lot of politicians seem to have the goal of proving that government never works, and they go about it by removing everything that works for the common good, but of course leaving in programs that benefit their rich pals. Then they get more campaign funding from said rich pals to continue the cycle. All the while complaining about fictitious welfare queens, who even if they existed, would be less of a problem than the legal corruption of campaign financing.
 

ToyBoxOrphan

Administrator
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
257
#10
This could be taken straight from Republican / FoxNews talking points non-answer. I don't see how ethnic diversity prevents universal healthcare. Excepting in as much as some people don't want blacks to get free health care.
Only because you're assuming he's advocating for the status quo. There are other options. It doesn't have to be what we have now or what some other country is doing.
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
23
#11
This generation’s most out spoken waka dos sound a lot like red bolshivicks or the Chinese red army during the precursor to the chinese revolution.
Could be, at the fringe. You see some hopeless muddling of ends and means from those antifa types, for example. The kids at the Washington rally yesterday sounded less Maoist and more like people looking forward to voting for the first time this fall: "vote them out" and "they'd better get their resumes updated." They're thinking about political power flowing from a ballot.
 

Doc D

Moderator
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Messages
38
#12
Republican talking points aside. I didn’t say Universal Health couldn’t work in this country, I said we shouldn’t use nations with very different Socio-ethnic and Economic systems as our only template. The NHS in Britain does a fine job in public health and hospital care but its behavioral health and EMS services are an utter wreck. Australa has great pre-hospital protocols but shit for rehab and recovery.

If you want Universal Health care in this country you would have to look at other countries programs as what they are and what they provide and then realize you would have to scale that up a lot. You would have to look at their success and their short falls and actually make critical decisions on what would work in this country. Instead of jumping up and down screaming “Europe can do it why can’t we.” Why don’t you actually look at the whole of the U.S. and ask yourself how in the hell are we going to institute the largest democratic welfare program in the world and not leave anyone out and not bankrupt the country in the process.

Can it be done yes but it’s gonna take a hell of a lot more than an European model to pull off.
 

Doc D

Moderator
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Messages
38
#13
This generation’s most out spoken waka dos sound a lot like red bolshivicks or the Chinese red army during the precursor to the chinese revolution.
Could be, at the fringe. You see some hopeless muddling of ends and means from those antifa types, for example. The kids at the Washington rally yesterday sounded less Maoist and more like people looking forward to voting for the first time this fall: "vote them out" and "they'd better get their resumes updated." They're thinking about political power flowing from a ballot.
The downside is the Fringe elements these days controls the dialog. I’m afraid gone are the days were we looked at the Weirdo Commies in the college quad and laughed, or the days were Neo Nazis were seen as utter freaking mad men. Now the deranged is the mainstream.

Good god we have a whole news network that has taken a trip down Goosestep lane to the point were analysts, reporters, and pundits are chucking deuces from a network they have been with for decades, and somehow this is the new normal.

Am I impressed that these kids have stood up for what they believe in yeah but I’m not so naive to think somewhere there is not a political group working angle on these kids and using them for their own agenda.

Hitler Youth and the Chinese red army didn’t start out as bullet boys for horrific political agenda’s either. They were angry scared kids, college students, young labors and intellectuals. Politics especially politics that doesn’t give a crap about people will do some really fucked up shit to the most well meaning of people or ideas.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Messages
171
#14
This could be taken straight from Republican / FoxNews talking points non-answer. I don't see how ethnic diversity prevents universal healthcare. Excepting in as much as some people don't want blacks to get free health care.
Only because you're assuming he's advocating for the status quo. There are other options. It doesn't have to be what we have now or what some other country is doing.
As I said, this is literally the argument of the Republicans, who have utterly failed to come up with a plan other than to do their best to gut the ACA, because it is "Obamacare". And I see no sign of a plan in there, just criticism of everything that works better than what the US currently has. On the basis of ethnic diversity. I call bullshit.
 
Joined
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Messages
171
#15
Republican talking points aside. I didn’t say Universal Health couldn’t work in this country, I said we shouldn’t use nations with very different Socio-ethnic and Economic systems as our only template.
I wasn't saying that either. You may note I mentioned developing nations, many of which are very ethnically diverse and yet many of those still somehow manage universal healthcare.
The NHS in Britain does a fine job in public health and hospital care but its behavioral health and EMS services are an utter wreck. Australa has great pre-hospital protocols but shit for rehab and recovery.

If you want Universal Health care in this country you would have to look at other countries programs as what they are and what they provide and then realize you would have to scale that up a lot. You would have to look at their success and their short falls and actually make critical decisions on what would work in this country.
Hey, now we're getting somewhere.
Instead of jumping up and down screaming “Europe can do it why can’t we.”
A lot of people had to jump up and down and scream to get it on the agenda at all. Don't knock it.
Why don’t you actually look at the whole of the U.S. and ask yourself how in the hell are we going to institute the largest democratic welfare program in the world and not leave anyone out and not bankrupt the country in the process.
I have asked myself that. The target seems pretty clear to me: single-payer seems to work best, both in terms of results and cost, but transitioning to that is a problem. Should each state be responsible through block grants? Should it be a federal program? The clearest vision so far seems to be Bernie Sanders' Medicare for all, which has a transition plan and everything. The Republican Party is ignoring it altogether, and the Democratic Party is not (yet) supporting it as a whole, much less working on improving it.
Can it be done yes but it’s gonna take a hell of a lot more than an European model to pull off.
If it can be done on the scale of 100 million in Germany, France, or England, I don't think it's that much of a jump in scale to 300 million Americans. The problem will be (1) the political will and (2) the transition.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Messages
171
#17
but I’m not so naive to think somewhere there is not a political group working angle on these kids and using them for their own agenda.
Hmm, makes me wonder who's doing some Cambridge Analytica style data-mining on their social media footprints.
Simple: everyone. The Republicans, the Democrats, Russia, England, probably Israel, Germany, and a half dozen others, too. Anyone who has the capability. If and what they do with that data once they have it is another matter. Republicans want to put them off the Democratic Party - they don't see them as possible allies. The Democratic Party wants to win them over to the corporate wing of the Democratic Party. The Russians want to destabilize the US, so that the US doesn't interfere in their global agenda. England and the rest mostly just want to not be caught unawares of major political shifts.
 
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Messages
120
#18
Well, the obvious difference is that tornadoes and (to a lesser extent) fires are natural occurrences. Shootings, not so much. So I think there's a distinction that can be made there.

As far as women learning self defense, this is my perspective, and it probably falls right in line with what you're saying: why should I have to learn self defense because someone guy can't be bothered to control his zipper? In other words, why is the burden on me? Yeah, it's a good idea for me to know how to defend myself, but it's a better idea for all of us to know self control.
 

ToyBoxOrphan

Administrator
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
257
#19
Well, the obvious difference is that tornadoes and (to a lesser extent) fires are natural occurrences. Shootings, not so much. So I think there's a distinction that can be made there.
Well bomb drills are not a natural occurrence.

In other words, why is the burden on me? Yeah, it's a good idea for me to know how to defend myself, but it's a better idea for all of us to know self control.
The burden isn't just on you. It's literally on everyone.
 
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Messages
120
#20
Well, the obvious difference is that tornadoes and (to a lesser extent) fires are natural occurrences. Shootings, not so much. So I think there's a distinction that can be made there.
Well bomb drills are not a natural occurrence.

In other words, why is the burden on me? Yeah, it's a good idea for me to know how to defend myself, but it's a better idea for all of us to know self control.
The burden isn't just on you. It's literally on everyone.
I don’t recall doing bomb drills, but definitely tornado and fire. Point taken on the burden.
 
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